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DT: come reap

why do people kill people who kill people to show people that killing people is wrong?

Posted on 2006.30.12 at 03:07
where am I: Amerika
How I feel about it all: discontentdiscontent
Tags: , , ,
So, Saddam has been executed. Now I suppose the next thing I should hear is that all those people he killed are alive again, because isn't that why he was killed?

I can understand Iraq's feelings about this. I don't agree with revenge, but I understand it. I do NOT get America's elation. Somebody needs to 'splain, Lucy, because I just don't understand killing people for killing people. I don't honestly think I ever will, really. *sigh*

And, a twenty-year-old saying "I guess it's one less person in the world we have to deal with" makes me feel icky inside.

Comments:


Band2-Mathematiker
missapocalyptic at 2006-12-30 11:38 (UTC) ()
Yes.

"I guess it's one less person in the world we have to deal with"

Hey, let's not deal with people anymore - let's kill them! So much easier! *headdesk*

And the trial against Hussein? I don't want to write down the whole thing again, if your interested in my (highly intelligent and, of course, absolutely right) opinion: Go Here.
tapped_trish
tapped_trish at 2006-12-30 11:52 (UTC) ()
If someone killed one of your children, you wouldn't want revenge? I know that if someone killed someone I love I would have to be restrained from personally killing them, nevermind waiting for justice to be served.
Band2-Mathematiker
missapocalyptic at 2006-12-30 12:00 (UTC) ()
I don't know how I'd react, but it's possible that I'd shoot the murderer of someone I love on the spot. Yes. That's revenge and that's understandable. But that doesn't mean it's right. To have personal feelings of revenge is acceptable, to build a justice system on it, is unacceptable. Subjective and objective have to remain seperated. That's why there's no arbitrary law.
peacey at 2006-12-30 12:22 (UTC) ()
While I agree with you that a justice system should not be based upon the pursuit of revenge, I must point out that what is considered right and wrong is itself subjective. The Iraqi culture and belief systems are far different than those of "the west." We can label them "right" or "wrong" by our culture's standards, just as they may label ours, but that does not give us the right to dictate how they should conduct their constitutionally agreed upon legal affairs.
Band2-Mathematiker
missapocalyptic at 2006-12-30 14:19 (UTC) ()
I'm not saying that there is one "universal justice" (and that I know what it is). And I'm also not saying that my point of view on death penalty is the only possible one. I just reject the argument of "But imagine the crime would concern you..." (which I hear all too often).
peacey at 2006-12-30 17:12 (UTC) ()
Fair enough.
tapped_trish
tapped_trish at 2006-12-30 22:21 (UTC) ()
The world is not a system of black and white, there is a huge gray area in between. I understand that you don't agree with the death penalty, however I think that you have to look at the whole picture before jumping to conclusions. For instance, I personally would never get an abortion unless it was medically needed, that does not mean I will condone someone who does get one. They are legal, and I fear that if they become illegal, alot of people will die because they are being done without regulations. I also think that we are not the judge of anything, that is the divine being's job to judge what is right or wrong. I have my opinion as does everyone else in the world, it is entitled to each of us.
Band2-Mathematiker
missapocalyptic at 2006-12-31 00:16 (UTC) ()
Uhm... well, that's exactly what I specified in this comment: No black and white, no universal justice. I'm sorry if I expressed this badly.

"I have my opinion as does everyone else in the world, it is entitled to each of us."

Yes. Which means that you have every right not only to have this opinion, but also to express it. And I have the right to oppose. Besides, I didn't even really oppose your opinion ( as I said, I can completely understand the wish for revenge) - I did suppose some implications. Maybe I misunderstood you and you merely wanted to express empathy for people who wish for revenge, too (and not use it as an argument for arbitrary justice, as I thought you did) - then please, correct me and tell me I got you wrong. If you meant exactly the thing I thought... well, then either explain to me why you think I'm wrong, (which will lead to me explaining why I think you're wrong) or just feel free to ignore it. But please don't make it sound as if I tried to oppress you.
I think, the right to have and state opinions does also imply the right to object and the exigency to discuss them. That's all I want to do.

And yeah, I do know some very good arguments for death penalty. I don't like to admit they exist, but they do. I simply don't think you're argument one of the good ones. But, hey, explain to me why it is. Or tell me I got you wrong, whatever. Abortion is an even more difficult topic (and I'm not even sure I have a firm opinion about this), so I don't think I want to get into this right now. Apart from that, my (supposed) opinion seems to be quite similar to yours, so...
tapped_trish
tapped_trish at 2006-12-31 01:38 (UTC) ()
Ugh I just had a long post and my dear husband accidently deleted it. I am not necesarrily trying to agree/disagree with you. I was asking my mother in law (Primrose) what she would do in that situation. Although her and I are very similar, we are worlds apart on opinions. Therefore, I tend to ask her what ifs. She is a part of my family now (or I vice versa) that I suppose I like to play devil's advocate quite often. Not in a bad way but the why do you feel so strongly this way about it type of way, and what would you do if's. I suppose it I just like to get to know her better. I am sorry if I offended you. To be honest, I am not truly sure how I feel about the death penalty. I know that there are situations that I would like to be the one to execute someone and there are other situations that I feel it is total BS. I guess that is par for the course.
try to catch the deluge in a paper cup
primroseburrows at 2006-12-31 02:51 (UTC) ()
She is a part of my family now (or I vice versa)

...and I am very happy that this is the case. :)

To be honest, I am not truly sure how I feel about the death penalty. I know that there are situations that I would like to be the one to execute someone and there are other situations that I feel it is total BS. I guess that is par for the course.

That's not a bad opinion to have. I don't agree with all of it, but I guess that just says that I'm more biased or something. To say that there are exceptions to the rule is to say you think about things, and I like that a lot. *hugs*
try to catch the deluge in a paper cup
primroseburrows at 2006-12-31 02:53 (UTC) ()
Abortion is an even more difficult topic (and I'm not even sure I have a firm opinion about this), so I don't think I want to get into this right now.

Whee! Maybe I should rant about that next, because it would be a long, drawn out one with LOTS OF CAPITAL LETTERS. *g*
try to catch the deluge in a paper cup
primroseburrows at 2006-12-31 02:32 (UTC) ()
The Iraqi culture and belief systems are far different than those of "the west." We can label them "right" or "wrong" by our culture's standards, just as they may label ours, but that does not give us the right to dictate how they should conduct their constitutionally agreed upon legal affairs.

My rant was more about the reaction the U.S. is having to the execution, not Iraq's decision to do it. I have a moral opposition to the death penalty in general, but that wasn't my main focus. I also agree with missapocalyptic about the International Court being the proper place to try Saddam.
try to catch the deluge in a paper cup
primroseburrows at 2006-12-31 02:09 (UTC) ()
I said in my post that I understand the revenge. I don't understand the American's reaction. What does America have to get revenge against Saddam for? He's never attacked our country.

I don't agree with revenge, but you're right. If someone hurt one of my kids, it could very well be a different story, which is why I understand it. I hope I'd be different, but I can't say for sure. I really hope I never have to find out.

But I don't understand why America is so happy, or that killing a killer is "justice". It's revenge, yes, and I've already said how I feel about that. It's understandable. I don't know why we as a country feel the way we do.
peacey at 2006-12-30 12:11 (UTC) ()
Killing people for killing people goes to the "eye for an eye" mentality and that the same fate that one's victims suffer so should be suffered upon the perpetrator. The fact that all those he killed will not be brought back by his death isn't the point. The point is that, by comparison, in a very small way and for a very few moments, he felt their fear. Which, in my opinion, is far more significant than his actual death.

You must look beyond man-made borders and see his victims as members of the human family, as our brothers and sisters and perhaps you might understand why some people the world over feel a sense of elation or relief. When I see video of his torturings, I certainly don't see his victim's nationality, skin color, etc. I see a man or woman more similar to me than differen, one who feels and loves and wants to live and I want justice for them and for those who loved them - a justice that they set and that they feel appropriate and right.

Also, had he not been executed, many Iraqis believed he would come back to power when the coalition forces eventually leave and continue to terrorize them. They now know that they are truly free of this despot.

Generally, I don't advocate capital punishment. I am certainly not elated by Saddam's execution. For the Iraqi people and the families of his victims, I am relieved.
try to catch the deluge in a paper cup
primroseburrows at 2006-12-31 02:43 (UTC) ()
When I see video of his torturings, I certainly don't see his victim's nationality, skin color, etc. I see a man or woman more similar to me than different, one who feels and loves and wants to live and I want justice for them and for those who loved them - a justice that they set and that they feel appropriate and right.

I agree that the Iraqis should have justice. I disagree about what is considered justice, however.

Also, if a torturer is responsible for his terrible crimes (and I certainly believe he or she is), then what do we do about Guantanamo Bay? Or Abu Ghraib? We have blood on our hands, too.

lupin_spirit
lupin_spirit at 2006-12-30 19:56 (UTC) ()
My reaction:

Who the f*ck cares.

This month alone (as of Thursday), at least 2,139 Iraqis have been killed in war-related violence. That's an average of more than 76 people a day. During the same time 109 U.S. soldiers have also died, an average of more than 3 a day.

These are only the *reported* deaths.

I say again- who cares if Saddam Hussein is dead. If anything his life is less valuable than the countless others who died each day before his execution and will die today and tomorrow and the day after tomorrow and the day after that...
try to catch the deluge in a paper cup
primroseburrows at 2006-12-31 02:47 (UTC) ()
I'm not really talking just about Saddam, it's more about the reaction Americans are having to his death, and also about the moral choice of execution (which, as I've said, I understand in regards to the Iraqis).

If anything his life is less valuable than the countless others who died each day before his execution and will die today and tomorrow and the day after tomorrow and the day after that...

I agree with you completely about that. Unfortunately, we have a leader with blood on his hands, and a lot of it, as well. It's very, very sad, and 2008 can't get here fast enough, at least in this case. If anyone needs to be tried by an International court, it's George W. Bush.
lupin_spirit
lupin_spirit at 2006-12-31 04:30 (UTC) ()
I just realized I did I really bad job of explaining myself. I may have come off sounding like death (his death of any death) is no big deal. I'm just so offended at how big a deal this is, when we shrug off the lives of so many others.

Plus, this attitude that american opinions of the man, his life and his death have any relevance at all is so incredibly arrogant.
try to catch the deluge in a paper cup
primroseburrows at 2006-12-31 08:10 (UTC) ()
*nods vigourously*

Americans do have overinflated opinions of themselves, in general. Hopefully I've made it out of the generality.
on_a_hill at 2006-12-30 21:09 (UTC) ()
:( I agree.

I find him to be deplorable but in his trial, it was also clear to me that he had serious mental issues too. :(
try to catch the deluge in a paper cup
primroseburrows at 2006-12-31 02:48 (UTC) ()
I think he did. I wonder if anyone gave him a mini-mental or all those other tests they give people to see if they're psychologically and psychiatrically fit to stand trial.

I'm in no way sticking up for Saddam, here, btw, just wondering as someone in the psych biz.
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